Fuselage individual numbering/lettering system

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Ron F.
Luftwaffe numbering system? Don Caldwell? Ruy? others?
Thu Nov 29 05:33:38 2024


all,
was the numbering system on the side of the fighters, ie, white 1, rote 2, etc, designations of rank or placement of a pilot in the staffel/schwarm/rotte?

what i mean is, white 1 the staffel kapitan, white 2 his wingman, etc etc?

all the pics ive seen, only some show the staffelkapitan etc to have the number 1, but not always. many examples of Gruppen kommodores have high digit numbers (ie Bar,Priller)

ive only seen the mention of it in luftwaffe aircraft in profile by sundin and bergstrom. it was used early, but fell out of use later.

hope i made this post clear...

Ron

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

G.R.Morrison
Who's Nr. 1 ?
Thu Nov 29 18:02:53 2024


And the answer is... "yes and no" (typical for the Luftwaffe!).

It's impossible to be dogmatic about many things-Luftwaffe, and aircraft designators are another one.

Generally, the earlier in the war, the more-likely the 'boss' (Staffelkapitaen) would use "1" or in the case of Stukas and bombers, "A". However, there are always examples of other numbers ('favorite' or 'lucky' numbers) being used (Steinhoff's 109D coded "N + 7").

Baer, for instance started out with "13", but used "7" as well (Bf 109F-2 of 1./JG 51, FW 190A-7 of 6./JG 1).

Rudel (the Greatest) used "A" later, but when Staffelkapitaen of 1./St.G. 2 was flying "T6+HH" - with both an 'H' and an '8' (eighth letter) painted on the wheel cover's front and side. Rationale? His radio callsign was "Hannelore."

There were traditions in some Staffeln of the Kapitaen using "7" (examples: 3./JG 53 and 9./JG 3)

Late in the war, the high command ordered that chevrons (Winkeln) be removed and instead, the Stab used numbers in the 20s. This was not always adhered to.

Having looked at enough loss reports to seriously affect my vision, I can also reliably report that an aircraft with "1" or a "Doppelwinkel" might just as easily be lost while being flown by an Unteroffizier as an Oberleutnant or Hauptmann.

Looking through logbooks, it's clear that while a pilot may have a favorite plane (number), there are no shortage of examples of their flying ANY number (or letter), my assumption being, "What's repaired or Flugklar today?"

Hope this perspective was of some use,
GRM

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Ron F.
Re: Who's Nr. 1 ?
Fri Nov 30 20:22:45 2024


thanks,
basically saying the same as me. but, im looking for anything written down, or said by pilots/ground crew that could confirm or deny the use of the numbering system to validate position within the rotte,schwarm and staffel.

Ron

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!

kevin baesler
Stab markings
Tue Dec 11 02:49:38 2024


in some units the "double chevron" and 'chevron and bars" markings of Stab aircraft seem to have been dispensed with, particularly in the late war years. Oesau and Priller both flew aircraft numbered 13 and others such as Mietusch and Heinz Bar flew aircraft numbered in the 20s.

Were there Luftwaffe regulations governing markings for Jagdwaffe units or was it up to individual units to work out their own?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Hank
Stab Markings
Thu Dec 13 21:21:34 2024


Yes, there were regulations prescribing what the markings, i.e. chevrons and bars, should be. The use of numbers was an individual thing; the more senior pilot, i.e. Gruppenkommandeur or Staffelfuehrer/Staffelkapitaen, would have first choice. Unfortunately, no one has turned up the regs for the Geschwaderstab and Gruppenstaf markings, yet. Can anyone out there help?

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Markus
WNr. + letters
Tue Sep 23 13:43:02 2024
212.125.48.14

Hi,
can somebody say something about Werknummern and letters? What is for example the meaning of the letters HG (or NG?) in front of WNr. 2624 (He 111 P-2) in the book "Heinkel He 111" by Manfred Griehl on the bottom of page 117?
All the best
Markus

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Paulo Dario
And what about after...
Tue Sep 23 13:53:15 2024
211.72.203.65

...like the Emil W.Nr.6453F pictured in the Jagdwaffe Series "Strike in the Balkans" ?
TIA
Paulo

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Sergio Luis dos Santos
Re: And what about after...
Tue Sep 23 14:12:27 2024
200.152.34.150

Dario, from what I remember, the F after the W.Nr. means an airframe rebuilt after an crash. I may be wrong...

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Werknummern and Letters
Tue Sep 23 18:38:26 2024
132.60.7.2

The "F" following the Bf 109E Werknummer stands for "Flugklar," or "flight certified." Presumably applied to badly smashed airplanes restored to service!

Letters in front of Werknummern are another matter. I have a small but completely reliable sample of Bf 110 Werknummern for aircraft built by Götha Waggon Fabrik (GWF).
These numbers are preceded by "G." Was this an officially sanctioned practice or one introduced in field record-keeping? I don't know.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Fran
'F' letter
Wed Sep 24 13:23:02 2024
213.172.48.6

Anton, how much badly smashed should be a restored airframe
to carry the letter 'F'?
I have seen records of aircraft that previously sustained
90% of damage.
Another question is when a manufacturer I'd say for instance, Arado and it is rebuilt by Erla, the latter adds
its own manufacturer plate?

Regards
Fran

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
The Flugklar Situation
Wed Sep 24 15:47:42 2024
198.26.120.13

Fran,

I'm sorry, but I cannot tell you anything authoritative about the relationship between percent of damage and "Flugklar" status. My strong guess would be that the percent of damage and Flugklar status would not be closely related. Slight damage——below about 20 percent, let us say——probably would not have required (or produced) the Flugklar rubric.

It is true that examples of apparently very severely damaged aircraft flying again do exist. These cases, however, are quite unusual.

In all cases known to me, German aircraft repair never resulted in a change of airframe manufacturer (or Hersteller) or of Werknummer. Some cases are known where late war Bf 109s received a second data plate (sometimes shown mounted beside the original plate in photographs), but I believe such aircraft kept their original Hersteller and Werknummern.

Although there has been a LOT of yak-yak for decades about the repair and conversion of Luftwaffe aircraft, the truth is that there is no reliable literature on the subject, and we really know little about the GAF's aircraft repair policies and infrastructure.

RA

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
The Flugklar Situation
Wed Sep 24 16:01:27 2024
213.25.54.73

Not a proof of anything but seeing some definitely write off RAF aircraft re-appearing after some time as well as some photos from repair centre it seems that the issue is more complicated.
It seems every aircraft had been dismantled for basic components which were inspected, repaired and overhauled. Then a new aircraft was built from the stock of spare components. As to identity, in case of Spitfires it seems either mainframe was regarded as a separate component or the ID plate removed from wrecks and then reattached to complete airframe.
I think this applies very much to some German repairs.
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Graham Boak
British a/c: the serial belongs to the fuselage.
Wed Sep 24 16:46:23 2024
20.138.254.2

You can change everything else but that.

This is pretty clear with the Spitfire but I'm not sure how it worked with component-based fuselages such as the Hurricane.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
British a/c: the serial belongs to the fuselage.
Wed Sep 24 16:55:54 2024
213.25.54.73

Nice, however pure theory. Seen photos of 308 Sqn Spitfire with a hole so big that a man can get on the other side of the fuselage, however very 'this' Spit has been sold abroad post-war.
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Graham Boak
There's always exceptions.
Wed Sep 24 19:06:30 2024
195.92.168.164

Rules nonetheless exist, and are normally applied. And the "wrong" serial has been known to cross-over after major rebuilds. I don't know for sure, but I don't think that any main fuselage sections are ever build as spares, whereas wings etc certainly were.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
There's always exceptions
Wed Sep 24 19:12:36 2024
213.25.54.73

I mean that either ID plate or the whole main frame must have being removed during dismantling and then a new fuselage composed out of the usable parts. If so, identity is a matter of coin flip.
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

MikiBzh
Luftwaffe code number
Sun Dec 5, 2024 14:33
193.249.110.216


Hi,

Does number on the fuselage of Luftwaffe aircraft represent a function in the staffel, like 4 yellow and so on ?

Thanks.

MikiBzh

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

david jones
numbers
Mon Dec 6, 2024 14:59
24.157.88.76


http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/luftwaff.htm

This will help you, Miki.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

MikiBzh
Thanks (nm)
Tue Dec 7, 2024 18:18
193.249.108.232