Museums with Luftwaffe aircraft - 2

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mikael Olrog
Techniches Museum Berlin in 1940's
Wed May 2 14:18:35 2024


Does anyone have a complete listing of the aircraft that was part of this collection before it was destroyed/dispersed? Or can you suggest a website or book where I can find it?

I'm curious to know to what extent they added captured aircraft to their collection or if it was strictly german aircraft only.

Thanks for your help!
/Mikael

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Willis
Deutsche Luftfahrt -Sammlung-Berlin
Wed May 2 21:20:16 2024


Hi

This collection was a unique collection and did indeed have in it's inventory quite a few Beute aircraft from many countries aswell as captured First World War!

Airco DH 9A
Sopwith Camel
Spad S13
Spad SA-2

Bloch MB 200 (ex Czech a/c)
Fairey Battle I (ex RAF)
Gloster Gladiator Mk II (ex Baltic States?)
Hawker Hurricane I (ex RAF)
Yak 1 (ex Russian)
MiG 3 (ex Russian)
Morane MS 230 (ex French)
Morane MS 406 (ex French)
UTI 4 (ex Russian)
I-16 (ex Russian) 'Rata'
Potez 63-11 (ex French)
PZL P-38/I (ex Polish)
PZL P.11c (ex Polish)
PWS 26 (ex Polish) 'still with Lw markings'
Spifire II (ex RAF)
Wellington II (ex RAF) 'in wrecked condition'

a mystery!!!

Stinson L-5 Sentinel; s/n 42-98643

I am not sure whether this was a part of the original collection but when some of the aircraft were discovered at Krakow in Poland after the war most of the aircraft were from this collection. The Sentinel was discovered with them.

Can anybody help.

In response to Hans when he visited the Museum some the beute aircraft may have been taken out and stored. Like all museums evrything changes from time to time, things added and items taken away.

The Luftwaffe too had a museum were all of the collection consisted of foreign and beute aircraft called BeutePark de Lw 5 at Nanterre in Paris.

Kind regards

Tom Willis

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Willis
Berlin Museum - additions
Wed May 2 21:30:05 2024


Hi

Forgot to include the Dutch beute types:

Douglas 8A-3N
Fokker D.21

Tom

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Peter 'Mikolaj' Mikolajski
Poland
Wed May 2 23:37:30 2024


You've wrote "I am not sure whether this was a part of the original collection but when some of the aircraft were discovered at Krakow in Poland after the war most of the aircraft were from this collection."
Planes were evacuated from museum in 1943 and were sent in six (?) different places. In Czarnkow near Poznan (Poland) Germans sent PZL P.11c, PWS-26 and several other planes. Most of them were recovered after the war and is exhibited in museum in Krakow. DH-9a (F1010) was exchanged for Spitfire XVI and one plane is in Berlin. I can add also Hawk used by Udet (still with Olympic rings), Me 209 (fuselage, wings are in other museum and this museum probablu has sth else from original collection), Halberstadt CL-II 15459/17 fabric nr 1046 and Aviatik C-III 12250/17 fabric nr 1996. I think that Hans could not see some captured planes because they could had German markings (i.e. Polish PWS-26 and PZL P.38/I Wilk).

Greets

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tom Willis
Berlin Museum - Poland
Thu May 3 15:09:50 2024


Hi

Thanks for the info:

I thought that some at least were left at Krakow.

Do you have the information as to where the other locations in Poland that the aircraft were stored?

I did not mention the Hawk, ex D-IRIK because the list only dealt with beute (booty) aircraft.

Only the PWS 26 was displayed with Lw markings VG+AS; the PZL P.38/I kept its original Polish markings. This was the same as all of the other beute aircraft in the collection.

Kind regards

Tom

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Peter 'Mikolaj' Mikolajski
Markings
Thu May 3 20:53:55 2024


Unfortunately only one place was found in Poland. Maybe other planes are still hidden?
Few years ago (maybe eight?) I saw two pics from museum in Berlin. Our PZL P.38/I had no markings. No German signs and no Polish. Unfortunately this plane still is missing.

Well, I'm looking for any info about any captured planes because I (and many other visitors of 12 O'Clock) prepared website about captured planes. World War Two section is open but there is only list of captured planes. More info and pics will be available soon. I just need some time to prepare all photos (almost 200) to put them on.

Greets

Peter

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mikael Olrog
Thanks for great information! (n/t)
Thu May 3 18:42:47 2024

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Hans
missing Beute planes
Wed May 9 01:47:00 2024


Howdy Y'all

When I had a chance to visit the museum, The Bombing at berlin was in full force.
There was some kind of evacuation because there were some empty spaces. Not far away from the museum there were some bombhits and afterwards Moabith was hit badly. At one time on an Sunday, we were called out to help clearing the bombdamage and reached one cellar in which 22 woman end children were huddled An very scared look on their faces. And all were dead, the results of an "Airmine" An large bomb that exploded in the air and bursted longues of the victims.
Not very far away from the museum.

I never had a chance to visit the museum again.

Bad memories.

Hans

[Richard T Eger]

The Messerschmitt 109 lair website has a very active forum and features detailed photo walkarounds and operating instructions. The site address is:

http://www.geocities.com/therapist_109/

Besides the forum, sections of interest are:


Articles - An eclectic collection of articles, some with very nice drawings, as follows:

Reasons behind the aspect of the 109 K4
Use of the RLM02 and RLM66 colors in the 109s
The different tall tails of the late war 109s
What was the "box" behind the pilot armor on Bf 109 G10
Was the G10 chin bulges found also on G14 A/S version ?
The drop tanks of the F-K series
The slats of the F-K series


References - Operating instructions, detailed color photo walkarounds, and drawings highlight this section.

<U>Messerschmitt Me 109 G2</U>

Foreword
Pilot's operating instructions (PDF format)

<U>Messerschmitt Me 109 G6</U>

Walkaround 109 G6 WrkNr 167271 - Finnish Air Force Museum, Tikkakoski
Walkaround 109 G6 WrkNr 163824 - Australian War Memorial, Treloar Centre Annex
Walkaround 109 G6 WrkNr 163306 - Poland
Spare parts manuals
Pilot's operating instructions (PDF format)

<U>Messerschmitt Me 109 K4</U>

Pilot's operating instructions (PDF format)
Pilot's operating instructions english translation (PDF format)

<U>Hispano Aviacion 1112 (Buchon)</U>

Walkaround - Spanish markings

<U>Avia S99/S199 (Mule)</U>

Scale drawings (all variants)


Scale models of the 109 - Color photos of impressive scale models by:

Floyd Werner
Franck Oudin
Bernd-Joachim Willmer
Vincent Kermorgant
Stephane Wrobel
Roy Long
Gaël Elégoët


Links - Actually, a single link:

The Mule index (All about the Avia 199)


Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

wouter
Seaching for tips about me 262 trip.
Fri Jun 15 01:31:49 2024


In this sommer I wanna go to visit some Me262 historic
places. Many years ago I saw the Me262 in Munich and I was in Parchim where Franz Schall crashed. Does anybody know for example a nice little Luftwaffe museum nearby an airfield?
I start off in the Netherlands. Maybe I do it in August and visit also Speyer for the aircraft exhibition.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Wolf
me 262
Fri Jun 15 15:35:03 2024


I am afraid the only me262 you can find in germany is the one in munuch. but if you are interested to visit a good aviatic museum, try the one in hanover. they have a me 109 g, a fw 190 and a spitfire mx 14 there. and a lot about WWII history.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Alex W. Hohl
Re: me 262
Sun Jun 17 09:44:24 2024


Wolf,
you are wrong. Till Friday I was in Prague and I visited the Ceck Air Force Museum in Prague-Kbely.
The is a Avia S-92 which is similar as the Me 262. They had a Bücker Bestmann, R4 Rockets, a MK 108 and lot of former things of the Luftwaffe.

I would to visit the Museum in Hermeskeil on the motorway to Bonn. It's much more worth to see as
the 'storage' of Speyer or Sindasheim.

regards

Alex

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Wouter
Me262 trip
Mon Jun 18 15:22:36 2024


Thanks Wolf and Alex. I will keeps the tips in mind. By the
way I can't find Hermeskeil on a map.

Greetings Wouter

[Richard T Eger]

The Virtual Aviation Museum website's strength is in its listing of aviation museums in Europe. While there is the occasional photo and minimal technical and historical detail, these are not the site's strenghts. The address of the site is:

http://www.luftfahrtmuseum.com/htmi/general/i.htm


Sections of Luftwaffe interest:


<U>Aircraft types</U>

Listed by name, designer, and category, a broad, but light depth coverage is made of much of the world's aircraft output.


<U>References</U>

Currently, there is only a listing of magazines worldwide. The intent is to add sections on famous aviators and a dictionary of aviation terms.


<U>Museums in Europe</U>

Czech Republic

<U>Letecke Muzeum, Prague-Kbely</U>

Avia M 211 (Lizenz Jumo 211) 12 cylinder inverted V-engine, OK-AVE
Avia C 104 (Liz. Bü 131) Basic Trainer, A-27
Avia S 199 (Liz. Me 109 G) Fighter, UF-25
Avia K 65 Cap reconnaissance and liason airplane, HO 20
Avia As 10 C aircooled 8-cylinder inline inverted-V engine
Avia S 199 Doppelsitzer Fighter, C 26
Avia S 92 (Lizenz:Me 262) fighter, V-34
Jumo 004 jet engine
Let C 106 Basic Trainer, UA 264
Nord N 1002 Pingouin

Hungary

<U>Kozlekedesi Museum, Budapest</U>

Brandenburgische Flugzeugwerke B 75
Junkers F 13, 574

Poland

<U>Muzeum Lotnictwa Narodowe, Krakow</U>

Akaflieg München 13 D Atalante, SP-824
Akaflieg Aachen FVA 10 B Rheinland, B1939, SP-051
Albatros L 101, D-EKYQ
Bücker BÜ 131 Jungmann, 13113, SP-AFO
DFS Rhönsperber, SP-148
DFS Weihe, 00316, SP-029
DFS Olympia Meise, 82, SP-390
DFS Kranich II two seat soaring plane
Geest Möwe IV, 4
Heinkel He 5, D-OMIP
Lippisch Storch VII "H. Huckebein"
Messerschmitt Me 209 V1, 1185, D-INJR
Schneider SG 38 "Schädelspalter"


Regards,
Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 04 February 2024).]

[Richard T Eger]

The www.paulnann.com Military Aviation Photo Gallery has photos of Luftwaffe aircraft in various museums around the world. The website address is:

http://www.paulnann.com/


The following is a list of aircraft by country, museum, and location. Numbers in parentheses are number of photos. All photos are in color.


USA

<U>Willow Grove NAS, Pennsylvania</U>

Me 262B-1a/U1, 110639 (1)

<U>Planes of Fame museum, Chino, California</U>

Mitsubishi J8M1 Shusui (Me 163), 403 (1)


England

<U>The Fighter Collection, G-AYSJ, Duxford, Cambridgeshire</U>

Bü 133C Jungmeister, LG+01 (1)

<U>Old Flying Machine Company, Duxford, Cambridgeshire</U>

Casa 1.131E (Bü 131) Jungmann, E3B-153/781-75 (2)
Casa 2.111B (He 111H-16), B2I-27 (1)

<U>Duxford, Cambridgeshire</U>

Bf-109G-10, 2 (1)

<U>RAF Museum, Hendon</U>

He 111H-23, NT+SL (1)
Bf 109E-3, 12 (1)
Bf 110G-4, D5+RL (1)

<U>Imperial War Museum</U>

Bf 109G-2/trop, 10639/6 (3)

<U>RAF Museum, Cosford RAF, Shropshire</U>

Me 262A-2a, 112373 (1)
Me 410A-1-U2, 420/430/3U+CC (1)


Scotland

<U>Museum of Flight, East Fortune, Lothian</U>

Me 163B-1a, 191659/15 (1)


Belgium

<U>Koninklijk Legermuseum, Brussels</U>

Bü 181B Bestmann, TP+CP (1)


Netherlands

<U>Militaire Luchtvaart Museum, Soesterberg</U>

Do 24T-3, X-24 (1)


Germany

<U>Deutsches Museum, Munich</U>

Ba 349 (1)
Casa 1.131E (Bü 131) Jungmann, E.3B-555 (1)
Fi 156C-3, A-96 (1)
Junkers A50ci Junior, D-2054 (1)
Junkers F.13fe, D-366 (1)
Messerschmitt M 17, D-779 (1)
Bf 109E-3, 2804 (1)
Me 163B-1a, 120370 (1)
Me 262A-1a, 500071/3 (4)

<U>Deutsches Museum Flugwerft, Schleissheim</U>

Bü 181 Bestmann, D-ECYV (2)
Casa 2.111B (He 111H-16) (1)
Do 24ATT, D-CATD (1)
Bf 109G-2 (Hispano HA.1109K.1L) (1)
Kaiser Kal (probably Grunau Baby), D-8362 (1)

<U>Auto und Technik Museum, Sinsheim</U>

Casa 2.111B (He 111H-16), 5J+GN (1)

<U>Junkers Museum, Dessau</U>

Ju 52/3mg4e, 6134/1Z-BY (1)

<U>Memmingen</U>

Bf 109G-2 (Hispano HA.1109K.1L) (1)

<U>Luftwaffe Museum, Gatow</U>

Me 163B-1a, 191904 (1)


Switzerland

<U>Verkehrshaus der Schweiz, Luzcern</U>

Bü 133C Jungmeister, U-060 (1)

<U>Museum der Schweizerischen Fliegertruppe, Dubendorf</U>

Bü 181B-1 Bestmann, A-251 (1)
Fi 156C-3, A-100 (1)
Bf 108B-2, A-209 (1)
Bf 109E-3, J-355 (1)


Poland

<U>Muzeum Lotnictwai Astronautyki, Krakow</U>

Bü 131B Jungmann, SP-AFO (1)
Me 209V1 (fuselage), D-INJR (1)


Russia

<U>Central Museum of the Great Patriotic War, Victory Park, Moscow</U>

Bf-109F (1)


Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Alex Crawford
Udet's Hawk's
Wed Apr 3 20:13:40 2024
62.31.64.2

I am looking information/photos of the two Curtiss Hawks that Udet used to test his dive bombing theories. I believe one was used at the 1936 Olympics.

Thanks in advance.

Alex

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

jednastka
It still exists!
Fri Apr 5 19:00:34 2024
209.226.19.170

link to picture of fuselage in the Krakow Air Museum

http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl/samolot/sam12.html

I remember seeing a side photo of this fuselage somewhere, and in it you could clearly see the 1936 Olympic logo.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

jednastka
More photos!
Fri Apr 5 19:25:32 2024
209.226.19.170

The side photo mentioned earlier

http://www.algonet.se/~molrog/Luftwa...gn/DIRIK_2.jpg

A cockpit photo

http://www.algonet.se/~molrog/Luftwa...IK_cockpit.jpg

[Richard T Eger]

At first, the Aircraft Engine Historical Society website didn't strike a chord with me, as it looked to contain information only on American and British engines, hardly the stuff of Luftwaffe interest. However, looks can be deceiving and one really needs to explore this site thoroughly. It has a very helpful search engine and one of the site's most noteworthy features is exploration of the Sarah Clark collection at NARA II. There are a fair number of color photos of German engines in museums. Another unique feature is a very extensive guide to scanning of historical documents. The site address is:

http://www.enginehistory.org/

Search Engine

Working down the main page, one comes directly to the search engine. It is here that one of the hidden assets of this site jumps to life. If you type in Jumo 004, it will look for any Jumo engine. Photographs available of Jumo engines in various museum collections can than be viewed through the internal links. If there is a book or review reference, this will also have an internal link for viewing.

One weakness is that some engine and engine location identification information is not given. Also, on one page, the thumbnail size references are so small that the photos are hard to make out. However, the enlargements are of excellent size and quality.

Book Reviews

Working down the main page, you come to the site index on the left. As I said, much of the site is devoted to American and British engines and thus, so far, every index listing above book reviews has nothing covering German engines. One book reviewed is "The Bombing of Rolls-Royce at Derby in two World Wars". Within this is some discussion of the BMW 801 and Do 217. Beyond this review, the books reviewed have a decided anglo/American slant.

Author's Page

Scanning Archival Material, by Daniel D. Whitney

A wonderful hidden gem of a treatise on this subject in pdf format well worth printing out, Whitney covers the following aspects:

How Scanners Work
Using Scanned Document Files
Exploiting the Advantages of Scanning
File Compression
Adobe Acrobat Format (pdf)
Transparencies
So How Should I Scan and Process Documents?
Issues and Integrity
Summary
Additional reading

The 6 pages of text are followed by a page showing how a poor original document scanned in full color at 4,729 KB, can actually be improved upon by proper color channel selection, reducing document size to 35 to 36 KB.

This page is followed with a table entitled "Alternative Raster File Formats, Benefits and Applications", giving the pro's and con's of bmp, tiff, gif, and jpeg formats.

References

Index of Selected Engine Information in the Sarah Clark Files at the National Archives II, by Kimble D. McCutcheon

Quoting from the site:

"The Sarah Clark Files contain a wealth of information on Air Force aircraft, engines, and equipment from 1916 to 1951. This is a copy of engine topics in the finding aid."

While the emphasis is probably on U.S. built engines, McCutcheon goes to considerable trouble to explain what the Sarah Clark collection is and how to search within it. I have been through the same indexes he has and their is a wealth of information in the Sarah Clark collection on German engines and aircraft, so becoming a bit familiar with its in's and out's is time well spent.

As McCutcheon describes the index, its arrangement is a bit arcane, which is being generous. In general, the index is arranged in chronological packets of time. Each packet will start out at the lowest decimal filing system number, then work up in ascending numerical sequence. Once done, the next packet and so on will run through the sequence, repeating over and over. For the 1939-45 time frame, you will have numerous seemingly overlapping packets time-wise. See McCutcheon's binder listings to see what I mean by this. Thus, if you want to hunt up information on BMW engines, you'll need to slog your way through a large chunk of the index. Nor can you really count on just looking for one decimal filing system number, like the 452.7 noted in McCutcheon's illustration. You might find related information under a variety of numbers. So, to do a thorough job of it, plan to spend about half a day jotting notes from these records. As can be seen, the RD numbers are the connection needed to get to the actual storage boxes.

Of especial value on the site is that McCutcheon has copied in pdf format all the 452 series engine reference index pages, which include foreign engines. Each page is downloadable to your computer. So, if engines are your thing, you can download all these pages to your computer and make your selections before you get to NARA II.

Galleries

Engine Images from the National Air and Space Museum

While no German engines are noted in the photos here, 2 color photos show storage racks of engines.

Images from museums in the former Eastern Bloc, by Tom Speer

--Aviation Museum, Krakow

Junkers Jumo 205 - 1 color photo
(A number of other engines are not identified)

Images from Deutsches Museum Flugwerft Schleißheim, by Terry Burks

Argus As 17a - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
Argus Model 4 - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
BMW M2 B15 - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
BMW 132a - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
BMW 803 - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
Daimler D IV a - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
DB 610 - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
Haacke HFM 3 - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
Junkers L5 - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
Jumo 211 F - 1 color photo, 1 plaque
Porsche PFM 3200 - 1 color photo, 1 plaque

Image Gallery: Fenland & West Norfolk Aviation Museum, by Gary and Janet Brossett

Junkers Jumo 211 wreck - 1 color photo

Image Gallery: EAA Museum in Oshkosh, WI, by Jim Buckel

Heinkel-Hirth He S 011 - 3 color photos

Links - Links to about 20 museum and engine sites.

Engines in Museums - tabular listings

San Diego Aerospace Museum

Junkers Jumo 004B-1
Walter 109-500A

The Kalamazoo Aviation History Museum

Hirth HM-504A-2

National Air and Space Museum

Air Technical Arsenal TSU-11 (Hitachi Hatsukaze Ha 11 Model 11 and Jet)
Opel (Argus) Type III
Argus As III
Argus As III DZ
Argus AS 10 R
Austro Daimler V-12
BMW Model IIIA
BMW 003
BMW 003A
BMW 801 (2)
BMW 801C
Turboshaft, BMW Model 6002
Benz BZ 4S
Daimler-Motoren (Mercedes) DIII Avu
Daimler-Benz DB 601-1E
Daimler-Benz DB 603 A (2)
Daimler-Benz DB 603 A-2
Daimler-Benz DB 605
Engine, Junkers 388L-1 (2)
Engine, Me 410A-3/U1 (2)
Hirth 500-B1
Hitachi Hatsukaze 11, Ha 11 Model 11 (Hirth) (2)
Heinkel-Hirth RR2
Heinkel He S 011 (2)
Jumo 004 (6)
Jumo 004 B4 (5)
Junkers Jumo 207 D-V2
Junkers Jumo 210 D
Junkers Jumo 211
Junkers Jumo 211-9 (2)
Junkers Jumo 213
Junkers Jumo 213A-1
Turbojet, Ne-20 (2)
Mock-up (wood) Engine, Turbojet, Air Technical Arsenal TR-30
Turbojet, Air Technical Arsenal TR-30

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

The Czech language site Nadace Letecké historické spoleènosti (LHS) Vyškov is for the Muzeum LHS Vyškov. While an English language version is planned, only a Czech language version is currently available. As there is no Czech to English translation engine available on Altavista, my coverage here is limited to what I can ascertain visually. Of particular interest is the archaeological discovery of a number of Luftwaffe aircraft. The site address is:

http://www.lhs-vyskov.cz/

Sections of interest are:

O nadaci LHS

SEKCE LETECKÉ ARCHEOLOGIE - Apparently there is active work in aircraft archeology which is discussed in this section. No specific aircraft are mentioned.

Expocize LHS

Expocize - Map showing location of museum NE of Vyškov.

Letecké exponáty - Photos and brief descriptions of the aircraft on display at the museum. Most, if not all, are of Soviet origin. There are no Luftwaffe aircraft at the museum.

Letecká archeologie - Photos and brief descriptions of artifacts obtained through archaeological digs. Luftwaffe items include:

Fw 190 A-8 propeller, engine, and possibly miscellaneous parts.
Fw 190 drop tank.
Bf 109 G-14 propeller and possible miscellaneous parts.
Bf 109 G tail wheel landing gear.
Miscellaneous parts to Fw 190 piloted by Uffz. Waltera Grunda which apparently crashed on 17 Dec. 1944.
Personal effects of Fw. Fritz Grothendieck who died on 17 Dec. 1944.

Fotogalerie

FOTOGALERIE: MUZEUM LHS - Photos taken at the museum. It apperas they have an MK 108 on display.

Sekce archeologie letectví - Photos of archaeological dig findings. See descriptions under Letecká archeologie above. There appear to be 1 or 2 extra views here.

Aktuality

Aktuality - Looks like an updates section. Information on Fw. Fritz Grothendieck.

Kdy je otevøeno - Museum hours and apparently admission fees.

Akce - Listing of aircraft uncovered in archaeological digs. Luftwaffe aircraft uncovered are:

Bf 109 G-14, WNr. 461981 (error?), Fw. FRITZ GROTHENDIECK, + 17.12.1944.
Bf 109 G-10, WNr. 461981 (error?), Lnt. HEINZ KRIEG, + 17.12.1944.
Fw 190 F-8, WNr. 931627, Ofw. WILHELM HENNING, + 25.8.1944.
Bf 109 G-14, WNr. 462906, Fw. KURT BARTZ, + 17.12.1944.
Fw 190 A-7, WNr. 642560, Uffz. WALTER GRUND, + 17.12.1944.
Bf 109 G-14/U-4, WNr. 510916, Uffz. BRUNO GESING, + 17.12.1944.

Kontakty

Osoby - Contact information.

Regards,
Richard