Werknummer System

From 12 O'clock High!:

patrick
werknummer
Sat Dec 2 22:06:56 2024


I would like to make my own database with werknummer, stammkenzeichen and type of a/c. Does someone have any tips for me how to do that and where to get the
information to fill it?

Also I would like to know how werknummers are build up. What does every number in a werknumber mean?

Thanks in advance.

Patrick

From TOH!:

Artie Bob
W.nr.Database
Sat Dec 2 22:52:07 2024


Building a W.nr. data base from scratch is an incredibly time intensive task and most cases probably has already been done by someone already. So, in most cases you are probably pretty much reinventing the wheel. Unless you have a specific purpose and a lot of time, my recommendation is find another way to expend your effort. There are several sources of Luftwaffe database information on the net (SIG Norway, for example. From my own experience, building my Ju 88 database has required, on the average of 20 to 30 minutes per entry. I have entered about 6-7000 W.nrs and have had about the same amount shared with me by others. So, I now have about 10,000 entries in the Ju 88 file, there were quite a few duplicate entries. But even when you get entries in electronic form, you will still probably The largest single source for database entry are the LW loss lists and care entry and analysis from those will provide answers to many questions. But the sources used to build a data base goes on for a long time: books, photos, logs, intelligence reports, etc.,etc.,etc. The one good result from spending several thousand hours squinting at fuzzy microfilm and photos, you will begin to get a sense of the micro-history of the Luftwaffe that I do not think you could grasp in any other way. So if if

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 27 December 2024).]

From TOH!:

Alex Marian O.
Re: werknummer
Sun Dec 3 13:01:37 2024


Don't forget the problem with the (xxx)xxx WNr formats, i had some problems with my database because of them

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Kari Lumppio
klumppio@frame.hut.fi
Erla Bf 109 F-4 Trop Stkz blocks - new ones?
Wed May 12, 2024 09:31
130.233.83.21

Salut!

I am supposed to work on something completely different, but this one surfaced almost out of blue.

I have a set of Bf 109 Stammkennzeichen of planes obviously travelling towards JG5 in Northern Finland/Norway. These are taken from Finnish Air Observation logs.

I also have a separate list of known Werke Nummern of JG 5 Bf 109 F-4 Trop (Erla built) planes. From the very same period than the Stkz data above.

There are couple of known F-4 Trop Stkz/WNr blocks which I think are clear cases (?):
CD+LA to CD+LZ (10107-10132)
CI+MA to CI+MZ (10161-10186)

But there also exist matching "visual" patterns for my Stkz/Wnr data. Therefore I would like to ask if someone can deny or confirm (sources?) following Stammkennzeichen block guesses:

VE+TA to VE+TZ (10081-10106) - 3 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
CL+GA to CL+GZ (10135-10160) - 11 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
SB+WA to SB+WZ (10187-10212) - 2 apparent Stkz/WNr matches
NJ+UA to NJ+UZ (10241-10266) - 3 apparent Stkz/WNr matches

I admit three of the blocks are weak cases because of few data points. But what is the probablity that the Stkz/WNr patterns (=place in the Stkz block) match even if there is only two or three points?

There would also be at least two out-of-sequene Stkz if my guess is right: WNr 10133 and 10134. Anything known about these planes?

Waiting eagerly for your responses.

Thanks in advance,
Kari

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
10133 and 10134
Thu May 13, 2024 09:09
83.109.139.71

Hi, Kari!

WNr 10133 is one of ours... lost when Uffz. Wilhelm Kuchlingg (written as in the original Namentliche Verlustemeldung) from 6./JG 5 was reported as MIA on 29.06.1942. He and presumably his Rottenflieger Feldw. Emil Stratmann was last seen as 6. Staffel engaged about 11 Russian fighters near Murmaschi. Kuchlingg's aircraft was at the time coded 'Gelbe 15', while Stratmann was flying 'Gelbe 4', WNr 10180 'CI+MT'. (all according to my notes).

Wnr 10134 was according to my notes lost by 8./JG 53 on 01.06.1942, near El Adem.

Regards,
Andreas

From TOCH!:

Rabe Anton
Bf 109F-4 Stammkennzeichen
Sat May 15, 2024 19:10
205.188.116.80

Hallo Kari!

I am sorry to be delayed in responding to you concerning your question of Bf 109F-4 Stammkennzeichen. Very busy here.

Sadly, I have very few SKZ data for the Werknummer ranges you are dealing with. Your question helps me understand why: I have few primary materials from the northern war.

From 12-14 years of study and collection of GAF SKZ, I can say that Messerschmitt Bf 109F blocks can be reconstructed from as few as two SKZ. For example, if you have Q Z + A D = 11 251 and Q Z + A J = 11 257, then all of the numbers betwee 11 251 and 11 257 and all the SKZ between "D" and "J" run sequently. BUT——you CANNOT reliably say what lies after Q Z + A J!!! The next block could begin with "A," or it could be a "partial block" beginning with any letter!!!

The "normal" SKZ block was "A" to "Z" (26 numbers). HOWEVER, it is very common to find "short," "terminated," or partial blocks of less than 26 examples. No matter. Within the blocks, the numbers and letters still run regularly.

Sadly, I do not have the data you have for airplanes traveling in Finland. I cannot, therefore, be sure, but I am pretty sure that Bf 109Fs 10 133 and 10 134 are simply "fillers," or a short block of two. These were often thrown in for security purposes, it seems. I have 10 130 as C D + L X. 10 131 and 10 132 MIGHT then be C D + L Y and C D + L Z. These facts would fit your data.

I hesitate to ask, for I know you have worked hard to obtain the documents, but I wonder if it would be possible to obtain copies of the original documents bearing SKZ? For more than 10 years, I have been working very hard to collect and arrange WNRs. and SKZs and would like very much to fill in the areas represented by "your" Bf 109Fs.

I already have the transit aircraft log book for Malmi, courtesy Carl-F. Guest.

I have no special interest in the northern air war or JG 5 and would use any documents only to improve my SKZ research.

Anyway, I hope that the above comments help you. If I had the data you have, I could give a MUCH better answer!

Very best regards,

James H. Kitchens, III, Ph.D.

From TOCH!:

Rabe/James
F-4 Skz
Mon May 17, 2024 14:27
62.241.191.61

Rabe/James

The advantage we have in this instance is a list of Skz. and a known list of damage losses.

Knowing what went up through Finland recorded by Skz. and then the W.Nr. recorded in the lost list is a great help.

It seems 95% tie in so it seems to make some well defined blocks.

regards

Mark