ULTRA - 5

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Gary Koch
Beauvais-Tille Airfield, Aug 44
Mon Sep 13, 2024 01:38
172.196.9.107

Can anyone tell me what Luftwaffe unit was stationed at Beauvais-Tille a/f in late Aug 44? I've searched a lot of Luftwaffe internet sources and can't seem to find the unit. Local French citizens thought it was from there that Bf109s attacked the 474th FG in the same area on 25 Aug 44. I know this was not so as the Bf109s that were involved in that fight were all from III./JG76 and took off out of Athis. Thanks in advance.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Beauvais-Tille
Mon Sep 13, 2024 13:55
212.104.129.146

Stab and I./JG 26 arrived there on 18 August 1944 (source: Ultra XL7100)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Gary Koch
Stab and I./JG26 Incorrect
Tue Sep 14, 2024 01:45
172.193.249.215

My sources (including info from Don Caldwell)indicate that Stab and I./JG26 were not at Beauvais-Tille in late Aug 44.
They show Stab JG26 at Chaumont-en-Vexin from 16-22 Aug 44 and then Valenciennes from 22-29 Aug 44. I./JG26 was at Vitry-en-Artois from 21-29 Aug 44. I do appreciate you researching this for me though. I have not heard of Ultra XL7100. Thank you again for checking, Nick!

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Beauvais-Tille
Tue Sep 14, 2024 13:12
212.104.129.149

XL 7100 is a decrypted German signal.

Don used Ultra information in writing "JG 26 War Diary Vol. 2" so it'd be interesting to know what led him to decide that the people who decoded this particular signal were wrong (as they sometimes - but not all that often - were).

One possibility was that Stab and I./JG 26 were ordered to go there but didn't make it for some reason. Your information doesn't seem to preclude I. Gruppe being at Beauvais from 18-21 August however.

If you read French, you might also want to check out "La Luftwaffe face au Débarquement Alliée" by Jean-Bernard Frappé (published by Éditions Heimdal)

"Researching" this was no problem. It was something I contributed to another thread way back (about a combat involving Polish Mustangs on 18 August 1944)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Gary Koch
Beavais-Tille Info (Thanks, Nick!)
Wed Sep 15, 2024 01:49
172.197.219.23

Again, many thanks, Nick! This is very interesting information indeed. I will definitely have to check this out further! Regards, Gary

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
JG 26 bases
Wed Sep 15, 2024 04:07
216.176.25.245

My principal sources for JG 26 bases are the maps in Priller's Geschichte eines Jagdgeschwaders. These were drawn by Alfred Iwanek, who had the same job on the JG 26 Geschwaderstab. The map data are checked against logbooks, where available. ULTRA is a third-level source. Its place names are not infallible because these were coded before going into the Enigma machine, and the codebreakers sometimes had to guess. Also, the situation on the Invasionsfront was so chaotic that a Gruppe could be "based" at three places at once, the clerks, ground crews, and planes/pilots being split. For the time in question, I used Iwanek's data. Details:

Decrypt XL-7100 says that on 18 August, the Stab and I/JG 26 were at Beauvais-Tille, while II/JG 26 was at Beauvais-Ninvillers. Decrypt XL-7286 says that on 18 August, the Stab and I/JG 26 were at Beauvais-Tille, while II/JG 26 was at Mons-en-Chausee. Is either one right, wnen both disagree with Iwanek?

I have three I/JG 26 Flugbuecher covering this period. Dozens of flights were made from Boissy-le-Bois; one was made from Beauvais, with no indication how the pilot got there.

I have no logbooks from Stab/JG 26, but it was based with I/JG 26 throughout this period of the war. Chaumont was "just up the road" from Boissy-le-Bois, and offered better housing.

The originator of this thread was looking for Bf 109 units based on Beauvais-Tille. The Stab, I/JG 26, and II/JG 26 were all Fw 190 units. A quick look at the endpaper map in Frappe's book shows no units were based on Beauvais-Tille during the invasion period. Not to say no-one based there for brief periods, but I'd guess that Tille was so well-known to the Allies that they kept it smashed up too badly to use.

HTH and Horrido!

Don

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Marko Jeras
Fiat Cr.42 units in Croatia in 1945?
Thu Dec 2, 2024 22:38
83.131.13.52


I remember to have read that NAGr.12 used this planes in Croatia in 1944/1945. Was there other units?

Best regards,

Marko

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Schenck
Re: Fiat Cr.42 units in Croatia in 1945?
Fri Dec 3, 2024 20:53
195.92.67.78


I am not sure for 1945, but at the end of 1943 and in 1944 Croatian Legion was equipped with them, only to be transferred to 2./NSGr.7 in short time.
ULTRA messages from reports on 5-Jan-1944 had Croatian Legion
with 8 serviceable Cr.42s out of nine. On 16-Jan-1944, ULTRA intercepts gives 2./NSGr.7 to be based at Banja Luka airfield from where it operated. It suffered heavy losses during Drvar operation, when at least 6 were completely destroyed on Banja Luka airfield and 6 more were due to cut, the rest of the unit moved to Ilandza auxiliary airfield. Hopes it helps a bit.

Pozdrav.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Fiats
Sat Dec 4, 2024 00:28
80.225.113.113


Another Ultra on this subject is HP 3817:

"2./NSG 7 evening 10th [October 1944] reported 9(5) CR.42, crews 10(9)."

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Marko Jeras
Thank you both!...
Sat Dec 4, 2024 09:03
83.131.79.26


for very interesting information. Was that unit a Geschwader (NSG) or just a Gruppe (NSGr.)?

With best regards,

Marko

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
NSG 7
Sun Dec 5, 2024 11:47
80.225.108.175


It was a Gruppe: Stab and three Staffeln.

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Schenck
Ju 52 crash on 15-Oct-1944
Sun Dec 5, 2024 13:01
195.92.67.74


The aircraft belonged to III/TG 2 and crashed during transferring personnel and equipment of NSGr.7 from Vukovar to Zagreb(Pleso). Only place mentioned is Bataszek, Hungary, which is far away from this route. Could anybody confirm if it crashed in Yugoslavia or Hungary, and any additional info on is welcome.
The source is ULTRA message HP4114 from DEFE3/240.
Many thanks.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Nick Beale
Ju 52
Tue Dec 7, 2024 09:46
212.104.129.149


The problem is with the special "language of Ultra messages. When HP 4114 mentions "Third Gruppe TG 2 Bataszek" it means that Bataszek was where the Gruppe was located, not the crash.

My interpretation is that the crash occurred between Vukovar and Pleso.