Museums with Luftwaffe aircraft - 2

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!

Mark Sheppard
Bf109 G-6 W.Nr410077
Wed Jan 31 14:08:27 2024


Hi all

This is carrying on from the conversation regarding the identity of the Bf109 G-6 which was recovered from Lake Swiblo in 1990. This aircraft is now with David Prewett in
Australia.

According to Charles Bavaroise he has identified the number as 410077 and there seems to be no doubt. Prien lists the block 410000-411000 as existing but gives no
details.

It would be nice for anyone to confirm whether there are any photos in the 411xxx range. I have seen ones from 410xxx and 440xxx in Preisn books, but nothing on
410xxx. How big the block was, we do not know.

The only other information I have came from the recovery and might help tie it down.

It belly alnded on the frozen lake in February 1944. Lake Swiblo was the front line at this point. Pilot survived and got back to his unit. It was then riddled with gunfire from
the German troops to stop it being a prize to the Russians.

It carried the markings of a
Engine DB605, engine number +36318 and was fitted/serviced on the 15.09.43.

It is thought from research to have either belonged to IV/JG54 or possible JG5? IV/JG54 is a good bet.

If anyone has any feedback or can find a photo of a G-6 in the 411xxx that would be a great help.

Looks as though we are looking at a mid 1943 built example?

Look forward to some good news.

Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
More info on WNr. 410.077
Wed Jan 31 14:33:47 2024


Hi Mark,

to my knowlegde there is no loss report on WNr. 410.077,
but we know, that WNr. 410.067 has a Stammkennzeichen RK+FO and Werknummer 410.081 a Stammkennzeichen RK+LC. Filling the gap in alphabetical order,
Stammkennzeichen for WNr. 410.077 should be RK+FY.

Werknummer 410.092 was lost in a crash at the manufacturer Erla-Leipzig on 4. October 1943, so we may asume, that 410.077 is from the late September 1943
production, which is quite fitting to the information you have on the DB 605 engine. I do not know of any photos of Bf 109s in the 410.0xx range, the nearest a/c is 410.288.
But 410.077 should be a typical mid-production G-6 with "old" canopy, Galland-Panzer head-armour, "small" rudder, short antenna mast and Peilring for FuG 16 on the
fuselage.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mark Sheppard
Werk number/skz
Wed Jan 31 17:36:50 2024


Charles

This also seems to be interesting as from what I recall, the two RLM block code letters that David passed to me were RK+??

Will speak to David and see whether he has any more on that, but that now also seems to tie in!!

Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:


Mark Sheppard
markings!
Thu Feb 1 13:22:21 2024


Hi all

I see the keyboard markings did not come out.

They were a chevron and circle indicating a Gruppe/Geschwader Technical Officer.

Other information

Standard 74/75/76 camouflage with fusealge mottling.

Yellow theatre markings below the wings and possibly below the enfine and around the fusealge cross (the fusealge cross band was mainly carried by JG51 and JG54).
Beleive the only unit with Bf109's at this point in the war or this location was IV/JG54?

Upper wing cross was the white ouline only.

One part number stated 3555-1089 Sach Nr6-109-591 although what it ties inot is not known.

Thought to have been operated from Dorpat on the Western side of Lake Peipus. (JG54 base)

As for the other items mentioned, I will look at the photos and confirm

Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mark Sheppard
Possible pilot Oblt Josef Gröne (TO) Stab/JG54?????
Thu Feb 1 14:40:32 2024


Hi all

Was looking through the JG54 loss lists on Bob Wartburgs page and a interesting listing came up. Unfortunately it was not for Bf109 G-6 W.Nr410077 but interesting
anyway.

13.04.44 Oblt Josef Gröne (TO) Stab/JG54
Bf109 G-6 W.Nr1643?? 100% Dorpat (same area) Verletzt

Has anyone got anything more on this pilot?

What do you think. a possibility??

A few other listings for G-6 aircraft in 41xxxx as well.

Let me know what you think and I'll decide whether it is worth a check with WASt?

Mark

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Charles Bavaroise
Loss of Josef Gröne
Thu Feb 1 15:06:45 2024


According to my database, Josef Gröne was flying a
Bf 109 G-6 with Werknummer 411.260 when he was wounded in April 1944. I'll try to cross-check with the original
WASt- reports as soon as possible to be sure, that this infomation is correct.

[Richard T Eger]

Jon Gant claims for his Messerschmitt Bf 109 website that it is the most authoritative site on the Bf 109. Having now reviewed it, I believe he certainly is in competition for that title. His site address is:

http://www.bf109.com/frameset.html

The sections of the site are as follows:

Site Articles

Messerschmitt Bf 109: The Beginning - Very short article with 2 color drawings and a b&w side view drawing.

Bf 109 Armament, by Tony Williams - Discusses the various armaments used by the Bf 109. A link labelled "armament" at the bottom of the article leads to significantly more information.

Hans Dittes 'Black 2' - Includes 3 color photos.

Preservation of Leather Artifacts: US Air Force Museum

Bf 109 Replica Project - Jon's ambition to build a replica. A link to an article on the Dakota Bf 109 replica tells the story of this interesting project, along with several color photos.

Meeting Franz Stigler, by Markus and Ryan Muntener - Short interview with 1 color and 2 b&w photos.

Bf109 Variant Evolution Information - Production numbers and list of variants with short description of what was unique about each one. Includes photos and drawings of some of the variants.

Messerschmitt Bf 109 Foreign Variations - Useage by Bulgaria, Croatia, Czechoslovakia, and Spain. Some tabular data.

Performance Statistics of the Bf 109 - Technical and performance information for the Bf 109V1, V3, B-2, E-4, F-3, G-6, and K-4. Five b&w photos.

Engine Construction Information - Technical information on the DB 600, DB 601, and DB 605. One b&w drawing, 1 color photo. Link to article on DB 601 and DB 605 with technical information, b&w drawing, and cutaway line drawing.

Armament Information - Table and description of armament used, color photo of amunition, table by variant indicating armament used along with history of useage, and two phantom drawings of amunition.

Pilots Manuals - Acrobat downloadable manuals for the Bf 109E, G-2, and K-4, along with English translations of the G-2 and K-4 manuals.

Flying the Messerschmitt Bf 109

RAE evaluation

Mark Hanna's commentary

Comments by 3 Luftwaffe pilots

Includes 3 color photos.

Photo Gallery

<U>Favourite Images</U>

MBB Bf 109G - 1 color photo
Bf 109G-2 'Black 6', WN 10639 - 2 color photos
Aerial shot, possibly of Black 2 - 1 color photo
Head-on cockpit - 2 b&w shots
Bf 109G-6 (D-FMBB) - 2 color photos

<U>Assorted 109 Images</U> - 3 color, 4 b&w photos

<U>Duxford Museum Visit (Nov' 2024)</U> - 5 color photos

<U>Deutsches Museum Visit</U>

BF 109E-3, WN 790 - 4 color photos
Ju 52 - 1 color photo
Me 163 - 1 color photo
Me 262 - 2 color photos
DB engine - 1 color photo

<U>The Art of Frank "Gray Eagle" Williamson</U> - 3 color in-flight images

Video Footage

A small video that Matt created for the site, but was not used because of bandwidth issues.

A larger movie showing archive footage of 109's taking off and in flight (with sound). Submitted by Sebastian Schweizer.

Sounds

A nice example of a 109 flypast, gives a great sense of the Daimler Benz's immense power.

Survivors News - News on Bf 109 airframes around the world. One fascinating color photo of 3 Me 262 fuselages.

Airworthy Messerschmit Bf 109 Survivors - Table listing 8 aircraft.

Static/Under Restoration Bf 109 Survivors - Large listing of survivors.

Message Board - Forum requiring membership.

Links - Five listed.

Bibliography - Ten references listed.

Regards,
Richard

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 08 April 2024).]

[Richard T Eger]

Much of James Yeowell's Horrido! - The Luftwaffe Research Website either never existed or has been drastically curtailed. What remains essentially are tables of Bf 109 Stammkennzeichen and a listing of Bf 109 survivors & replicas. The website address is:

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/

The sections of interest on this site are:

What's New - The usual site updates. Unfortunately, the site has not been updated since Dec. 1999.

The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Research page

<U>Bf 109 Stammkennzeichen</U> - Tables of Stammkennzeichen for the following ranges:

Stammkennzeichen ??+AA - FL+??

Stammkennzeichen GA+GH - NW+KU

Stammkennzeichen PB+?? - WU+PF

<U>Bf 109 Survivors & Replicas</U> - Information covering aircraft in:

USA
Canada
UK
Finland
Norway
Germany
Poland
Switzerland
Italy
Yugoslavia
South Africa
Australia

Links - Fairly short and a bit out of date.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

The website Fly-ins.com provides a search engine for upcoming airshows and a large selection of museum visitor information for air museums in the US, Canada, and Australia, including website addresses, if available. The website address for Fly-ins.com is:

http://www.fly-ins.com/flyins/index.po

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

The Pacific Wreck Database newsletter of May 2024 contains the following information related to 3 Do 24 aircraft in Australia:


"-------------------------------------------------------
7. Stan Gajda - Broome Dornier Do 24 Wrecks
--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/...da/broome.html

Gajda expands his coverage of the Dornier Wrecks off Broome. See photos and
read his commentary about Do 24 serial numbers X-1, X-20, X-23 and the X-36.
And, marvel at Stan's work these most amazing aircraft, and their unique
roll in Pacific and Australian history. Look for new sections from Stan over
the next months about his other discoveries. I am very please to have Stan
as a part of the site, and am sure you will marvel at his experience."

Take the link and you come to a very nice write-up giving the history of the 3 Do 24's and other seaplanes destroyed in Broome, Australia, during a Japanese air raid on March 3, 1942. Stan Gajda has provided fascinating photos of relics of and from these 3 aircraft. Parts of Do 24 X-1 have been restored and are at the Western Australia Aviation Museum. Stan has provided a link to the museum's website.

Regards,
Richard


[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 04 June 2024).]

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Garth
Schnaufers *other* tail fin scoreboard
Tue May 15 06:08:46 2024


Hi,

I've noticed in several posts recently and in publications that only the Imperial War Museums' Schnaufer tail fin is mentioned.

It appears that many around the world are not aware that here at the Australian War Memorial we have the other one with 121 kill markings on it.

I am currently writing up a short article on Heinz, he apparently shot down 38 Australians amongst his tally and I would like to know who got this information and how.

Thanks for your help

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
Fin3
Wed May 16 01:29:05 2024


If I remember from Hinchliffe's book ('Ace of Diamonds ISBN 0-7524-1690-1 published by Tempus Publishing LTD), and he devotes a chapter to this issue, the IWM fin is from a 110 assigned, but not used (as mentioned previously.

The fin from his "real" 110, the actual machine used to score the victories, is in private hands. It was found being used by a farmer as part of a roof for his shed!!!

(Recalling from reading the book about a year ago)

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 14 June 2024).]

[Richard T Eger]

The Messerschmitt 109 lair website has a very active forum and features detailed photo walkarounds and operating instructions. The site address is:

http://www.geocities.com/therapist_109/

Besides the forum, sections of interest are:


Articles - An eclectic collection of articles, some with very nice drawings, as follows:

Reasons behind the aspect of the 109 K4
Use of the RLM02 and RLM66 colors in the 109s
The different tall tails of the late war 109s
What was the "box" behind the pilot armor on Bf 109 G10
Was the G10 chin bulges found also on G14 A/S version ?
The drop tanks of the F-K series
The slats of the F-K series


References - Operating instructions, detailed color photo walkarounds, and drawings highlight this section.

<U>Messerschmitt Me 109 G2</U>

Foreword
Pilot's operating instructions (PDF format)

<U>Messerschmitt Me 109 G6</U>

Walkaround 109 G6 WrkNr 167271 - Finnish Air Force Museum, Tikkakoski
Walkaround 109 G6 WrkNr 163824 - Australian War Memorial, Treloar Centre Annex
Walkaround 109 G6 WrkNr 163306 - Poland
Spare parts manuals
Pilot's operating instructions (PDF format)

<U>Messerschmitt Me 109 K4</U>

Pilot's operating instructions (PDF format)
Pilot's operating instructions english translation (PDF format)

<U>Hispano Aviacion 1112 (Buchon)</U>

Walkaround - Spanish markings

<U>Avia S99/S199 (Mule)</U>

Scale drawings (all variants)


Scale models of the 109 - Color photos of impressive scale models by:

Floyd Werner
Franck Oudin
Bernd-Joachim Willmer
Vincent Kermorgant
Stephane Wrobel
Roy Long
Gaël Elégoët


Links - Actually, a single link:

The Mule index (All about the Avia 199)


Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

The Pacific Wreck Database newsletter of August 2024 contains the following information related to the Do 24 X-36 aircraft wreck in Australia:

"--------------------------------------------------------
10. Stan Gajda - Wreck of Dornier Do 24 X-36
--------------------------------------------------------

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/people/...a/do24x36.html

See extensive photographs of Do 24 X-36 which landed at night in the
aftermath of the devastating Broome raid by the Japanese. The crew burnt the
plane, thinking the Japanese were right behind them. Stan located this wreck
in 1982 after hearing many rumors about it. See photographs, and read an
eyewitness account of the crash."


Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

The Walter Website, by Shamus Reddin, covers the rocket motors produced by Walter and the missiles and aircraft they were used in. The site address is:

http://website.lineone.net/~skr/walter/walter.htm

Sections of interest are:

Hellmuth Walter and Walterwerke - Brief company background, with additional information on:

<U>Hellmuth Walter</U> - Background on Walter and his company, with photos.

<U>What's New</U> - Site update information.

<U>About the Walter Web Site</U>

<U>Acknowledgemants</U>

<U>References</U> - Includes references to RAE Technotes at the P.R.O. in London.

Aircraft Motors & The Me.163

<U>109-509 Rocket Motors</U> - Table listing motors and the aircraft they were used in. The title of this section is misleading, as these motors were used in the Me 163 as well as in other aircraft. Details, including text, photos, and diagrams of the engines and aircraft they were used in are presented.

Some repeated and some new details can be found in the following additional sub-sections:

<U>Messerschmitt Me.163A</U>

<U>Messerschmitt Me.163B</U>

<U>Dual Chambered Motors</U>

<U>Messerschmitt Me.163C</U>

<U>Messerschmitt Me.163D</U>

<U>Bachem Ba.349 "Natter"</U>

Missiles & Rockets - This section shows the major weapons for which Walter motors were used or developed. Four missiles/aircraft are listed:

Henshel Hs.293
Messerschmitt "Enzian"
Henshel Hs.117 "Schmetterling"
Bachem Ba.349 "Natter"

Of these, details are given for the Enzian and Natter, that for the Natter being repeated from the previous section.

Climb Assisters - The following 5 assisters are listed, but only generalized information on assisters is given:

RI-201 "Cold" Take Off Pack
RI-203 "Hot" Take Off Pack
Me.109 Climb Assister
Heimatschutzer I
Heimatschutzer IV

Motor Parts & Design - In this section, the design, construction and operation of the Walter motors is described.

<U>109-509 Motor Types</U> - Repeat of earlier table.

<U>Basic Motor Parts</U> - Nicely illustrated sub-section highlighting the different motor parts.

<U>109-509 Rocket Fuels</U> - Discusses C- and T-Stoff and the chemistry involved.

<U>Other Rocket Fuels</U> - Table describing different rocket fuels.

<U>Motor Operation</U> - Details, with photos, describing the operation of the Walter 109-509.A-1 motor in the Me 163.

There is also a link to a 3-view drawing of a Walter HWK 109-509.A-2 rocket motor which allows the reader to place the computer cursor on different parts of the engine and get a description of each part.

Preserved Motors - Table of preserved Walter rocket motors in museums around the world. Motors can be found in:

Australia
Canada
Germany
Japan
UK
USA

Background and photos are provided for many of the motors.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andreas Brekken
Bf 109G-2 WNr 10422 or Bf 109G-6 WNr 410042????
Wed Jan 2 07:55:43 2024


Hi, all.

I have been following the discussion on this aircraft, and corresponded with Dave McDonald.

He sent me a photograph of the aircraft before and after it was salvaged, and I wanted to clear up a couple of issues.

In one photograph, You can see the upper part of the wing, wit a noticeable bump, in my opinion corresponding to the larger undercarriage wheels fitted to G-6 aircraft.

Another aircraft show the tail area with the stencilled WNr on it.

In my opinion, this aircraft is not WNr 10042, I just cannot see ANY trace of the last number "2", and the paint is rather fresh in this area, right in front of the lower part of the swastika.

My guess (and yes it is only a guess) is that we are really talking about Bf 109G-6 WNr. 410042 (or another G-series aircraft with last three digits '042').

Can anyone provide data for the other Bf 109G's with the WNr ending with '042' to contradict my guesswork?

BTW:

WNr 410041 was lost by 6./JG 5 on December 11. 1943

Regards and a happy new year from

Andreas Brekken

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave
Wing STKZ
Wed Jan 2 10:33:14 2024


Andreas

David Prewett also confirmed the wing STKZ after comparing and finding the correct set after studying the pre recovery shot . Last 3 letters are J + QP so as Mark [ Sheppard] has advised GJ + QP would be correct ...... any help or a hindrance ;-0 .

regards

Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andreas Brekken
Depending on what it is
Wed Jan 2 13:45:51 2024


Hi!

If it is the remaisn of the Stkz for the whole aircraft of course of value.

If it is the remains of the first paintjob on the wings, not much value, as that stkz probably belonged to a G-6....

Andreas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tomislav Haramincic
Bf109 GJ+QP
Wed Jan 2 19:56:11 2024


Hi Andreas and Dave,

I have the stkz. "GJ+QP" listed as a Bf109 G-2, WNr.14798, WNF.
Another in the "GJ+Q?" range would be the "GJ+QJ", also G-2, WNr.14792, now marked as Yugoslav White 63 (9663), at display in the Yugoslav museum of aeronautics.

best regards,
Tomislav

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave
So.....
Wed Jan 2 22:59:32 2024


Hi Tomislav

This brings us back to what was thought to be her original Wk.Nr. This nummer is also on the tail , but at an angle and also seeming to be the older one of the two aplied . See my original thread a page back regarding 'Two wk.nr. same aircraft '

regards

Dave