Luftwaffe victory claims - 5

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Pete Burges
Source of Official Luftwaffe Claims
Fri Sep 27 21:52:08 2025
62.31.32.130

Can someone explain the source of the claims figures that appeared in official German communiques? Specifically, Alfred Price quotes in "Battle of Britain Day", the German headline claim for 15th Sept 1940 was that the Luftwaffe shot down 79 aircraft, against 30 actually lost.

Is the 79 a "claims prior to confirmation" figure, and as such, comparable to the RAF's claim of 175 shot down, or something else?

Pete

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Mike
Downed Bombers Credited to Both Flak and Fighter
Sun May 4 22:48:59 2025
152.163.189.170

I have seen many claim reports where the downing of a US bomber was credited to both flak and fighter. What were the "rules" that applied to this situation?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Bernd Barbas
Confirmed Victories
Mon May 5 14:19:28 2025
194.45.48.11

Hello Mike ,

long time ago someone explained that to me .

Over the German Reich you had at a certain day so much claims and so much wrecks . A Abschusskommission ( about victory board ) looked at all claims , victory reports , wittness reports and details herein and decided to each wreck one victory - about that !

Bernd

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Mike
Claims by Flak/Fighter
Mon May 5 14:57:11 2025
152.163.189.235

Dear Bernd, I also thought the rule was "one plane, one credit." But I have a copy of a hand-written "Abschusse vom 29.4.1944" from Luftgaukommando XI. It lists 20 crashes. Three were credited to flak, eleven to fighter, and six to both. Therefore, my confusion!

Mike

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:




Bernd Barbas
Claims and victories
Tue May 6 11:01:42 2025
194.45.48.11

Hello Mike ,

as already said , Im not the specialist on this things . I think , the list you got is a claim list of this day and I am quite sure ( besides rare errors ) that there are no two Abschussbestätigungen ( victory confirmations )for the same victim .
I have also some Luftflotte summaries from the east , but this were actually claims . If you have the format sheet , then its a victory .
But I don't want to start a lenghty discussion , I have big files of claims where the discussion with RLM took longer than 1 year .

I hope , this will help ,

Bernd Barbas

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

willaume
Re: Claims by Flak/Fighter
Tue May 6 16:33:30 2025
208.237.100.114

May be they were counted like that for the mudley points attribution.

3 were kill from the flak
11 were shoot down by fighter
and 6 have been separted from the formation by one and finished by the other ???


philippe

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

George Hopp
On fighter pilot overclaiming
Sun Jul 27 01:41:14 2025
216.191.233.201

This is an excerpt from a book called "The German Air Force" written by a W/C Asher Lee in 1946.

Page 299: "As in all air forces, there arose in the Luftwaffe a series of ace pilots, nearly all fighter pilots.... Such men as Moelders, Wick and Marseille were certainly first-class pilots, equal in caliber to any of their opposite numbers in the Allied air forces; but their mammoth claims of air combat victories, running sometimes over the two hundred mark, were absurdly exaggerated.... On one occasion a young German ace who shall be nameless (except he is one of the three stars mentioned above) returned from an engagement with Spitfires over the English Channel and claimed three of the Spitfires shot down. The ground staff noted that his guns had not been fired and that all his ammunition was intact in the aircraft. The story was circulated amongst the squadron and was transmitted to other flying units. The score of the ace pilot rose, but his stock fell, and he soon acquired a German staff appointment!"

This little gem obviously points at Moelders. Anyone have any comments -- well, except for the bit about the exaggerated claims, since that seems to have been common amongst Allied fighter pilots.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Lynn
I believe the English term is "baulderdash" (sp?)...
Sun Jul 27 02:09:50 2025
63.188.176.235

For many years after the war (and indeed, even in today's allegedly "enlightened" climate... see my earlier post), there persisted a steadfast ostrich-like tendency to dismiss the claims of the Experten as though the Allied losses never existed. Yet time and time again, serious and balanced research from historians and authors worldwide has shown the majority of the claims to hold up to the most exacting scrutiny. It's widely acknowledged that overclaiming occurred on all sides, but the cavalier dismissal of the enormous scores achieved by the Luftwaffe shows either the utter inexperience of the author in research matters or an ingrained bias against the erstwhile foe. I strongly suspect the latter case in this instance, given the date of the publication; it simply would not do to have the victors shown up in such a fashion so soon after the conflict ended...

That's just my opinion, of course.

Lynn

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Tony Williams
It's 'balderdash'!
Sun Jul 27 08:02:27 2025
195.149.37.214

..but seriously, while NW European results are now known with some precision due to careful cross-checking of Allied and German records, the same standard of evidence is still not available for the Eastern Front, AFAIK, and that's where most of the big claims come from.

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Michael
re: It's Balderdash
Sun Jul 27 18:46:52 2025
207.254.27.200

Tony,

for some interesting figures from the well known JG 26,
head over to the following UK site:
http://www.butler98.freeserve.co.uk/schlageter.htm

According to their reserach and statstics, what can be said
with some certainty is that the Russian Air Forces were not
nearly as successfull against the LW as the RAF & USAAF.

On the other hand, loss figures for Soviet planes (see e.g.
Christer's data on those) are way above those of other
participants in WW2.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Gordon
I have that book.
Sun Jul 27 17:23:35 2025
205.188.208.101

- I think the entire volume is colored with propaganda to the point it is almost useless, other than to show the conventional wisdom among the victorious allied combatants, on the eve of their hard-won monumental struggle to throttle Nazism. Asher Lee speaks for all of his comrades and his experiences led him to demean nearly every single aspect of the Luftwaffe. I doubt if even a bit of it was intentional. His opinions were more than a little bit slanted against his recent enemies, calling them stupid, or 'krauts', at various points. He includes some outstanding technical information about the makeup of the force, but there is little commentary worth reading. I always kept the book as a 'reality check' for the mindset of the men who were there at the time, fighting what they considered to be pure evil.

v/r
Gordon

[Richard T Eger]

From further within the thread on TOCH!:

rdunn
Verified Claims
Mon Jul 28 01:41:02 2025
68.49.10.227

George

The sceptics have always been around. German night fighters also ran up hefty claims. However, in this case the British did their own careful study during the war after capturing orders of the day from XII FK that recorded NF claims from Dec 42 to May 43. I won't go through the detailed methodology they used. Suffice to say it was thorough and did not rely on this one source alone. They also reviewed total (including flak) claims. Their conclusion was that NF claims were entirely honest and in fact under-stated British losses.

There are obvious reasons why these claims might have been so accurate, including a fastidious CO (Kammhuber) who insisted on verifiable claims, radar controlled intercepts, and multi-man crews. Still it is interesting that British intel (at least in this case) knew the GAF worked hard at verifying claims and yet we have the Asher Lee's of the world (then and since).

I think the attitude of command (both high level and the unit CO) has a lot to do with the accuracy of claims. It influences both pilots and intel officers. I have not yet done a definitive study on this so I'll just leave it as a thought to ponder.

Rick

[Richard T Eger]

For an enumeration of ZG 76 claims, the reader is referred to the "Books on ZG 76" topic, "References & Reference Materials" forum.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

For a good thread on the difference in claims noted in various books, the reader is referred to the "Books detailing Luftwaffe claims - 2" topic on the "References & Reference Materials" forum.

Regards,
Richard

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

lenneffer
Erich Hartmanns kill statistic
Mon Sep 15 11:30:47 2025
80.129.152.47

Hi forum,

just searched google for Hartmanns kill list. Seems not to be available.

Is it true that most of Hartmanns combat flights were only be flown by him and his wingman? Was this common in russia?

Does anybody now how many of Hartmanns kill were done behind the russian front line and only confirmed by his wingman with his signature under the form?

Does one of his wingman ever downed an russian aircraft with Hartmann as wingman?

Hartmann was downed in Hungary by a P-51. Did the US fighter pilots ever tell their version of the story how they downed Hartmann?

Alot of questions buy maybe someone has time to answer.
Thanks
lenneffer

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Angelos Mansolas
[email protected]
Hartmann's victories
Tue Sep 16 13:28:44 2025
62.38.228.192

Hilenneffer,

I do have Hartmann's biography which contains his complete kill list with a/c type, date, time, location etc. If you need it i can pass it to you in a "Word doc". It is difficult to tell how many of these were achieved behind enemy lines: you will have to match them by checking the ever-changing, wavering front line! In Russia most of the combats were made in extremely low altitude, behind the enemy lines, and, as unbelievable it may sounds, hunting in twos or fours was not unusual. As far as i can remember his wingman became an ace too. Are you sure he was shot down by a P-51? I think the story is quite different! Not only did he shot four of them down, but he also managed to escape by a miracle, when the American pilots supposedly mistook a Russian fighter for a Me-109 and began chasing the Soviets. That was on 24 June 1944 over Ploesti and it was the only single time Hartmann ever engaged US fighters, claiming for the first and last time victories over non-Soviet planes. As far as my memory serves me, he was shot down only once by a Soviet fighter, fell behind enemy lines and walked all the way back to his base (20 August 1943, after his 90th victory). I'll check again to be sure.
As for the credibility of his victories, as anyone could assure you, Luftwaffe had the most strict system of victory confirmation in the whole world. Although many in post war times tried to discredit it no one ever found something to blame it. If anyone had, rest assured, the whole world would be raving about false German claims by now. (Several researchers have found false US victories credited as "confirmed" instead, but not many of them ever made the news!).

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Lenneffer
Re: Hartmann's victories
Tue Sep 16 13:47:55 2025
217.88.187.127

Thanks, no, i try to buy a copy of his biography.

As for the P-51, Hartmann or somebody else wrote, that he bailed out because he was out of fuel. So it would be interesting the hear what the other "side" said.

Lenneffer

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Angelos Mansolas
Hartmann's wingman
Tue Sep 16 19:54:17 2025
62.38.239.93

This is true: he bailed out due to lack of fuel but not before shooting down his fifth and last Mustang of the war. After bailing out an American pilot passed him by -fortunately without shooting at him- and waved him goodbye. That is all.
Hartmann's (and Gunther Rall's) wingman -at least during their early combat days- was Lt. Hans-Joachim Birkner. He scored 117 victories before dying on 14 December 1944 over Poland.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Csaba Becze
Re: Hartmann's victories
Tue Sep 16 15:10:53 2025
193.6.243.137

The Hungarian confirmation systeme was more strict, than the German.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Angelos Mansolas
Aladar de Heppes
Tue Sep 16 17:02:58 2025
62.38.239.177

Hi Csaba,

Thanks for the information, i had no idea.
Since i understand you are an expert on the subject of Hungarian aces i would like to ask you something about the "Old Puma", Aladar De Heppes: i have a book describing a fight of his squadron against US bombers on 7 July 1944,where, according to the book, having ran out of ammo, Aladar aligned his wingman's (Iranyi's)Messerschmitt right behind him and bear his own reflector sight on the bomber. At a distance of 150 m he broke hard ordering Iranyi, still following close behind him, to fire his guns. Thus he destroyed the bomber using his sights, but somebody else's guns. It was a terrific story but Osprey's book "Hungarian Aces of WWII", although reffering to this particular action, does not mention anything Aladar's extraordinary feat. Do you know anything about it?

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
352
Wed Sep 17 04:43:07 2025
152.163.252.131

I still find it hard to believe that on the last day of the war, Hartmenn claimed a victory, wrote a combat report, got confirmation from a second source and an endorsement from a commanding officer - all the paperwork necessary to submit a claim.

And this ignores the fact that the confirmation process fell apart completely after fall 1944.

352 victories? hmmmm.....

And I do realize that on this board we treat the number 352 as sacred; something not to be blasphemed. But we should treat claims differently than confirmed victories.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
Erich Hartmann's possible rate of overclaiming
Wed Sep 17 08:57:10 2025
81.224.233.216

"I still find it hard to believe that on the last day of the war, Hartmenn claimed a victory, wrote a combat report, got confirmation from a second source and an endorsement from a commanding officer - all the paperwork necessary to submit a claim."

No, he didn't. I've got his and Hermann Graf's (his C.O.'s) account on it in the Graf & Grislawski book.

The number of 352 includes about 250 - 270 confirmed victories (Nos 1 through ~250/270), and the rest are claims that never were confirmed because, as you say, the confirmation process fell apart in late 1944.

There are rumours and accounts that claim that certain Luftwaffe fighter aces took credit for enemy aircraft that were shot down by men under their command. Some even have been accused of simply inventing some of their claims. It is very hard to find out at what extent those rumours are true, and I'd like to underscore that the research that my co-authors and I have undertaken regarding the air war in the East does not show any general significant overclaiming. (For many detailed examples, see the Graf & Grislawski book.) I'd also like to underscore that never have I heard such rumours regarding Erich Hartmann.

The Soviets actually lost at least 10,400 aircraft in combat in 1944, while the German fighters claimed to have shot down 8,501 (plus 3,488 claimed by Flak). This might give a hint of Erich Hartmann's possible rate of overclaiming.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
Overclaiming
Wed Sep 17 15:56:16 2025
63.150.97.2

I did not mean to imply that Hartmann deliberately overclaimed. From what I hae read about him that would be uncharacteristic of him. My point is that unconfirmed claims, no matter why they were not confirmed, should be treated as "claims" and listed separately from "confirmed vistories".

Further, the Luftwaffe had a vested interest in accurately determining their opponent's losses for military intelligence reasons. The propoganda machine, however, probaly had a different aenda.

And I am reading G&G now, but haven't gotten to that part.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

mars
Re: Overclaiming
Wed Sep 17 16:58:27 2025
12.106.254.66

here is some interesting discuss:
http://pub16.bravenet.com/forum/fetch.html?usernum=1293423449&msgid=10297&mode=&cp=

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Graham Boak
[email protected]
Of course there was German overclaiming
Wed Sep 17 12:42:24 2025
20.138.254.2

For example, in the Battle of Britain German claims were approximately three times British losses. This ratio appears to apply fairly generally to air forces fighting large involved battles.

Another: the Donald Caldwell's book on JG26 he refers to overclaiming by the rival JG2. Such things always seem to occur in other units....

This is without considering claims made completely without basis, such as those credited to von Werra in The One Who Got Away, or the well-documented case of the flight of JG27 self-promoted aces in the Western Desert. I don't believe such were common, but they do blow apart any suggestion that the Luftwaffe system is uniquely creditable.

Where research has been done on actual claims and losses of both sides, overclaiming has been found everywhere. No: Chris Shores, who has done much more of such research than most, states that he did find, the Italian fighter unit in Eritrea. Which only fought small scale combats.

It must be said the aces' claims are better founded than most. For example, Shores managed to identify 13 of Marseille's claimed victims from his famous claim of 17 in a day. Equally however, Marseille is known to have made more overclaiming later in his career, either from combat tiredness or simply through "knowing" that they fell down whenever he shot at them.

I know of no reason to suggest that Hartmann wasn't every bit as reliable as other aces in these matters.

As a separate point, I did understand that he had been shot down sixteen times.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

MAJ Sean Michael Leeman Abn.
Erich Hartmann's statistics
Tue Sep 16 17:43:03 2025
198.26.122.12

Lenneffer, His list is in the book Blonde Knight of Germany. I can scan it for you if you'd like. He did have a couple different wingmen. Only 1 of them an ex-bomber pilot was ever shot down. I would guess he flew w/ his wingman, or w/ 3 other pilots including his wingman most of the time. Don't know specifics about behind the russian front line, but if memory serves me right he was shot down once behinf the line & had to escape back to german line. I'm pretty sure his wingmen had some victories as well, but I can't remember specifics. Hope this will help some. Sean L.