Luftwaffe victory claims

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Andrew Diedling
Luftwaffe victory claims
Fri Feb 23 21:03:44 2024


Does anyone know where I can get a list of Luftwaffe victory claims?

Thanks a lot,

Andy

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Luftwaffe victory claims
Fri Feb 23 22:06:52 2024


I hope you realize that such a file, if complete, would be absolutely huge. There is a partial list at http://www.ww2.dk/ . Look for Tony Woods under contents. This file contains several thousand claims, all from just the western European theater.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Andrew Diedling
Luftwaffe Victory Claims
Sat Feb 24 15:50:11 2024


Thanks Jim,
Best of luck to you.

Andy

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dave Clark
clarkd@istar.ca
Luftwaffe Claims
Sat Feb 24 00:48:38 2024


I am only interested in Luftwaffe fighter aircraft claims in the Battle of Normandy. For that small part of the total picture I recommend J B Frappe, "La Luftwaffe -- face au debarquement allie", Editions Heimdal, ISBN 2 84048 126 X. If you want an address to order this book, please e-mail me.
best wishes
Dave

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Rob Romero
Verifiable Claims by Top Luftwaffe Aces
Sat Aug 18 06:54:48 2024


In their book Fighters Over the Desert Hans Ring and Christopher Shores concluded there was evidence supporting more than 100 of Mareille's 149 claims in North Africa (he was credited with 7 victories in the Battle of Britain). I have heard that even a skeptical Johnny Johnson (The RAF's top ace with 38 credits) had difficulty casting doubt on Guenther Prien's meticulously recorded claims (101). However, I recently read a post in this forum in which it was indicated that Erich Rudorffer heavily exaggerated his claims (222). Even though the Luftwaffe seriously attempted to verify each claim, overclaiming occured with the Jagdwaffe as well as with combatants of every other nation. Has any one done serious research into individual experten to see how accurate their claims were? (Christer Bergstrom comes to mind!) Were any of the top Luftwaffe claimants especially notable for either their accuracy or dishonesty? Who would then be the 'historically verified' Ace of Aces. Please post your response to this post (as well as my preivious post on the "Most Impressive Experten") to my e-mail address (cannae@netzero.com) as well as to this forum.

Thank you,

Rob Romero

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Christer Bergström
Claims and overclaims: Marseille, Graf, Grislawski, et al
Sat Aug 18 14:49:26 2024


It is very difficult to state for sure that a certain claim is an overclaim. I can mention one clear case, when two German fighter pilots attacked a formation of I-153s and claimed one each shot down. In this case, there was only one Soviet unit operating I-153s in that entire operational area, and I have access to the combat report from the I-153 unit in question. All important details in the Soviet report match with the German victory report: Time, location, and other similar circumstances. However, the Soviet report (which was filed by men who of course were unaware of the German victory claims) clearly states that all I-153s returned to base and landed safely, and the pilots' names are mentioned. Here I think it is possible to state that we have found two apparent overclaims. But in most cases, it is not that easy. Here is an example of that:

In "Black Cross/Red Star", Vol. 2, I deal with the claims made by III./JG 52 and I./JG 77 (the only Luftwaffe fighter units operating in eastern Ukraine in April 1942) in April 1942. Whereas I./JG 77 recorded an amazing tally of 62 victories against zero losses during April 1942, III./JG 52 - which was responsible for the area immediately to the north of I./JG 77's operational area - reported a victory total which is only a fraction of I./JG 77's tally. This is interesting, since the Soviet air forces in this area operated on a very limited scale during April 1942. VVS Southern Front - the only Soviet aviation which was active in the area where I./JG 77 operated - recorded only 31 combat losses through April 1942, and a certain part of these losses were due to ground fire. All but 19 of I./JG 77's claims in April 1942 were made by two pilots - Hauptmann Herbert Ihlefeld and his wingman, Oberleutnant Friedrich Geisshardt. This however does not necessarily mean that Ihlefeld and Geisshardt actually made particularly high overclaims.

There always are losses that - for some reason (I'd guess, mainly the human factor) - are not registered. This goes particularly with loss totals for a certain period, as with VVS Southern Front's losses in April 1942. A total of 43 claims by Ihlefeld and Geisshardt when the Soviets only registered 31 losses seems questionable at the first look. But Soviet aircraft that belly-landed in friendly territory can be justifyably claimed as shot down by German pilots, whereas the Soviets did not file them as losses, because they could be repaired. And what if the losses of maybe only one VVS regiment is missing from the Soviet loss total (this is quite possible - there is no breakdown for individual regiments), and what if this is a regiment that was pulled out of combat because of the very high losses it suffered (which was most common)? What if, for instance, the 11 fighters that Ihlefeld and Geisshardt claimed on April 20, 1942 came from this regiment? It can't be ruled out that almost all claims made by I./JG 77 in April 1942 were in fact brought down in a violent way. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to question I./JG 77's claims in April 1942 - both in the light of the Soviet figures and in the light of III./JG 52's comparatively lower claims in approximately the same combat zone - but to definitively state that they were overclaims would be to go too far.

In "Black Cross/Red Star", Vol. 2, I also mention the Soviet claims for destroyed Axis aircraft through March 1942 - 1,074. The Luftwaffe filed a total of 222 combat losses on the Eastern Front during the same period. Even if (which is highly probable) the actual Axis losses on the Eastern Front in March 1942 were higher than 222, and even if the Soviets could be given credit for a number of belly-landed aircraft that were not filed as losses by the Luftwaffe, it is evident that the Soviet figure is an exaggeration. But to assume that every single Soviet fighter pilot made similar overclaims would be wrong

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Franek Grabowski
Claims and overclaims: Marseille, Graf, Grislawski, et al
Sat Aug 18 20:40:31 2024


Unlucky time & location match do not make any proof that victory had occured. To make any serious statements we need accounts of both sides, AFAIK not available for eastern front. Therefore all what we might get are estimated and more or less (usually the latter) correct numbers.
Franek

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

John Beaman
Re: Claims and overclaims: Marseille, Graf, Grislawski, et a
Sat Aug 18 21:38:56 2024


Christer's remarks about what is counted as "shot down" are right on. Recall the October 13, 1943 Schwinfert raid: 60 bombers lost over Europe and the sea, but another 15+ suffered varying degrees of damage or damaged themselves in landing in England. All these were out of combat for some time or even scrapped. The USAAF did not count them as a loss, but the German pilot who did the damage was, in my opinion, entitled to a claim: the a/c was knocked out of action and that what you were trying to do.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dénes Bernád
Facts and thoughts about claims and losses (on East)...
Sun Aug 19 04:44:26 2024


I would strongly second - and emphasize - the highly important issue mentioned by Christer, namely the actual, *real* number of *all* aircraft losses due to enemy, when trying to confirm the claims of various fighter pilots.
While the German losses can be fairly easily (but *not* too easily) ascertained, because of the presence in combat reports of the actual percentage of damage inflicted in combat or accident, the other parties present on the Eastern Front did not have - to my knowledge - the same precise procedure of reporting the amount of damage.
For example, in the topic I studied the most - the Rumanian Air Force, that is - it's not always clear how much was the actual damage to the aircraft that returned from combat hit. Quite iften it has to be guessed. Moreover, official Rumanian reports consider as combat losses only the aircaft that were shot down and destroyed by enemy 95-100% or was MIA. This leads to significant differences in reported and real losses. As example, in the Rumanian Air Force's first campaign, over Bessarabia and the siege of Odessa (June-October 1941), the official reports mention '40 aircraft lost in combat', while my in-depth, aircraft-by-aircraft research concluded that 136 aircraft (!) were actually lost, to all causes, in the four-month-long campaign. A significant difference, I'd say.
Talking of overclaims, in the same period, Rumanian airmen overclaimed at least 1:3. From the picture that emerged to me by studying available Soviet data and Rumanian losses, the Soviets overclaimed at least at the same rate, if not more.
However, by comparison - because I have no accurate, complete and reliable Soviet data available for me I have to resort to another scene well known to me - I can state that the Luftwaffe claims filed in September 1944 over Transylvania, against clearly identifiable Rumanian aircraft (mostly German types) match almost 100% the actual Rumanian losses! Therefore, as conclusion, in my view, the claims closest to reality - at least on the Eastern Front, not studying the events on the Western Front and RVT - were generally filed, by far, by pilots of the Luftwaffe and the Finnish Air Force.

Dénes

[Gary T. Staffo]

Rob,
I am very much interested in info about Luftwaffe victory claims in the North African Mediterranean theatre of operations involving the 12th AF (later 15th AF) 99th BG 348th BS during the period July 1943 through October 1943, and especially on 10/10/43 in the vacinity of Tatoi Aerodrome, near Athens Greece where B17F 4230446 was shot down and crashed into a mountain side olive grove near Panaretti, Greece. Does the book you refer to "Fighters Over the Desert" Hans Ring and Christopher Shores involve any such missions? If so, is this book available in English? Where? If not are there any other sources you might refer me to? See my posting here an on WWW.heavybombers.com (http://WWW.heavybombers.com) for more details.
Thanks! Gary T. Staffo E-mail GStaffo@gis.net <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS,Verdana, Arial[/IMG]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard T Eger:
From 12 O'Clock High!:

Rob Romero
Verifiable Claims by Top Luftwaffe Aces
Sat Aug 18 06:54:48 2024


In their book Fighters Over the Desert Hans Ring and Christopher Shores concluded there was evidence supporting more than 100 of Mareille's 149 claims in North Africa (he was credited with 7 victories in the Battle of Britain). I have heard that even a skeptical Johnny Johnson (The RAF's top ace with 38 credits) had difficulty casting doubt on Guenther Prien's meticulously recorded claims (101). However, I recently read a post in this forum in which it was indicated that Erich Rudorffer heavily exaggerated his claims (222). Even though the Luftwaffe seriously attempted to verify each claim, overclaiming occured with the Jagdwaffe as well as with combatants of every other nation. Has any one done serious research into individual experten to see how accurate their claims were? (Christer Bergstrom comes to mind!) Were any of the top Luftwaffe claimants especially notable for either their accuracy or dishonesty? Who would then be the 'historically verified' Ace of Aces. Please post your response to this post (as well as my preivious post on the "Most Impressive Experten") to my e-mail address (cannae@netzero.com) as well as to this forum.

Thank you,

Rob Romero[/quote]

[Russell Guest]

The Luftwaffe claims for heavy bombers over Greece were as follows:-

10.10.43 Oblt. Alfred Burk 11./JG 27 B-17 20 km. N.W. Megara: 6.500 m. 12.04 Film C. 2024/II Anerk: Nr. -
10.10.43 Oblt. Jost Schlang Stab/JG 27 B-17 25 km. W. Korinth: 5.000 m. 12.15 Film C. 2024/II Anerk: Nr. -
10.10.43 Obstlt. Gustav Rödel Stab/JG 27 B-17 HSS Lamia: 6.000 m. 12.50 Film C. 2024/II Anerk: Nr. -

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

NickM
Hermann Buchner's victory list
Thu Dec 6 05:11:06 2024


Hi guys:
I just finished Hermann Buchner's 'Stormbirds'; great read. One thing though: I was wondering if anyone can point me to finding out a list of his aerial victories; only a few were recounted in the book.

Thanks, ahead of time;

NickM

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 11 January 2024).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: Hermann Buchner's victory list
Thu Dec 6 13:33:45 2024


Check his logbook which was included in the book. His abschusse should be noted there. (Far right column.)

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Dick Powers
Victories
Thu Dec 6 20:31:10 2024


Wouldn't victories noted in the log book only be claims? Some claims would be confirmed, others not.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Claims vs vics
Thu Dec 6 21:32:12 2024


So far, from the logbooks I've seen, virtually all claims therein match victories. I don't recall ever seeing a claim that wasn't included in a pilot's vic total. It should be noted that logbooks weren't, for the most part, kept by the pilots, but by unit clerks. Bits and pieces of data were possibly entered at different times, even several days after a flight.

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Don Caldwell
Unfortunately, there are no rules...
Fri Dec 7 15:08:05 2024


...when it comes to Luftwaffe documents, even "primary" ones such as Flugbuecher. Jim is right, these were kept by the Staffel clerks and filled in as time allowed, but no two clerks seem to have agreed on what was to be included. Some pilots (different handwriting) added a column noting their confirmed claims. But some took credit for claims that never made it out of the unit. The Flugbuch of one notorious line-shooter lists twice the number of claims he was actually credited with -- and was still being added to fifty years after the war! (The "1985" and "1995" versions of the Flugbuch are different!)

Lesson: "Flugbuch claims" are not the same as "confirmed claims."

Aside: The "claims issue" is just a numbers game, and is of minor significance. Claims indicate who the hot pilots and units were, and what units were actually involved in a given engagement. But losses are the historical data that count.

HTH & Horrido!

Don

[Richard T Eger]

From 12 O'Clock High!:

Aurélien Guénec
German and British archives
Fri Dec 14 14:44:31 2024


Could somebody tell me where I have to go to consult the air victories claims of RAF and Luftwaffe pilots?
Thanks for any answer
Aurélien Guénec

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Sean Michael Leeman Master Blaster
Luftwaffe victory claims
Fri Dec 14 16:22:33 2024


For the Luftwaffe you may have some luck with WASt in Berlin, or Bundesarchiv in Aachen. Good luck! Screamin'

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Jim P.
Re: German and British archives
Fri Dec 14 22:28:01 2024


See http://www.ww2.dk/. Click on the tab for Tony Wood. He's done an awesome job of transribing many claims. And his work continues. I think there is an file on the MTO about to be posted.

[This message has been edited by Richard T Eger (edited 16 January 2024).]

[Richard T Eger]

From TOCH!:

Aurélien
Thanks a lot! (n/t)
Sat Dec 15 06:52:20 2024